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Congratulations to Dr. cwjat, newly past her viva this afternoon!
So hot! So sticky! But it could be worse. The humidity is due to rise at the weekend. I miss air conditioning.
As much as it's easier and tastier to squeeze a few lemons and stir in sugar and water, I also miss North American-style frozen insta-drinks, especially NA-style lemonade. Drinks aren't sold that way here. It's either room temperature concentrate, or in the refridgerator section. I do have maple syrup in the house now, so I can try mixing up some of ewtikins' lemon-maple syrup-cayenne pepper drink. I've had "real" lemonade on the brain ever since the Henley picnic, where UK-style lemonade (i.e. 7-UP, Sprite) was needed to go with the Pimms.
The importance of tipping - with a discussion on whether or not free glasses of tap water counts as being a cheapskate or merely pragmatic. (on toronto_eats)

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There are 34 comments on this entry. (Reply.)

I miss the frozen lemonade as well. Also, I was very confused when I learned that anyone actually buys apple juice and orange juice in cartons, having grown up with the frozen concentrated stuff.

I think it used to be possible to buy small tins of orange juice concentrate at Sainbury's but this was back in 1999 and I haven't really checked since. I don't really drink huge amounts of juice.

One thing I like to do in this weather is chop up fruit into cubes, freeze it, and use it for smoothies as and when needed. It's much more convenient than keeping the fruit in the refrigerator, but it does require a blender that can handle actually-frozen things.

And smoothies require owning a blender of any sort in the first place, which I don't. Given my smoothie compulsions, you'd think I would. I'll take advantage of your suggestion some day when I do own one though!

None of the local grocery stores are terribly good for a full range of offerings. I stopped by a big Sainsbury's near Victoria Station the other week and coveted it.

I've been through a quart-or-so of juice (from cartons) today and a fair many mugs of water. So thirsty.

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Even more convenient - just buy the fruit in the frozen-foods section already frozen. Sabs and I do this all the time. Who has time to stand around chopping fruit?

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"As much as it's easier and tastier to squeeze a few[...]"

Is there a missing "than" somewhere in that sentence? I'm confused as to *which* is easier or tastier... (sorry, been reviewing documents this afternoon)

I keep a couple of small bottles of lime juice concentrate (as opposed to lime cordial) in my fridge that I tend to use for drinking rather than cooking purposes -- a couple of good hefty dashes of it into some nicely chilled water is quite refreshing...

As much as it's easier and tastier to squeeze a few lemons and stir in sugar and water, I also miss North American-style frozen insta-drinks, especially NA-style lemonade.

As much as it's easier and tastier to squeeze a few lemons and stir in sugar and water than to let a can soften for a few minutes, measure out the right amounts of water, and stir until it's melted and blended, I also miss North American-style frozen insta-drinks, especially NA-style lemonade.

Lime or lemon concentrate is a good idea for long-term storage of drinklike things. Cordial's way too sweet when what I want is "real" lemonade.

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I've been noticing that the Turkish supermarket across the road sells interesting concentrates, viz. lemon, rose, pomegranate, and similar things. I haven't yet investigated the ingredients lists, though, to see whether they're Good or Evil.

Recently, I've been experimenting with iced tea using fruit juices and spices (the last batch was sour cherry juice with cinnamon and cardamom, it worked rather well), though the batch that's currently cooling has freshly blenderized peaches in it.

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I'm not keen on pomegranate juice, based on my first two attempts to drink some, which is a little odd given that I quite like the taste of pomegranate seeds. Still, I'd be interested in investigating the rest of the range.

I haven't tried the lingonberry concentrate I bought at Ikea yet.

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I am getting the sense that the person who is ddefending ordering bottled water is just a snobby jerk--it certainly comes across in the comments. Paying for water in areas with high-quality tap is one of the stupidest modern trends, a huge environmental waste (energy consumed in bottling, packing, shipping, sales) that marks one as more interested in conspicuous consumption than actual quality.

Anyways, I drink up to two quarts of water per meal, so I don't feel obligated to buy astronomically priced fashion-water in order to stay hydrated. And given the generally indifferent quality of wine which is being overcharged for, the restaurants rarely make that a much more attractive solutions. One wonders if the original poster understands the concept of a siscount event, and the fact that it is not mandatory for the restaurants to participate in it.

Did you receive the card I sent a few weeks ago?

She does sound like an elitist jerk, doesn't she? She doesn't seem to get that "declining to pay any business any money for something you don't even want" isn't the same thing as "being cheapass".

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A card! How exciting! No, it hasn't arrived yet.

As someone who regularly buys bottles of water while travelling around - even around the city for the day - I do try to make a point of buying the brand of water which has travelled the least distance. Of course, I often prioritize a screw top lid over squeeze bottles regardless of origins, since I've had too many leaky bottles of water flood bags before.

In most restaurants, I order tap water - except when in France or Italy, which both have deeply ingrained cultural hangups about sticking with bottled water, at home and at restaurants, for all drinking needs. It's hard to fight the system.

It never occurred to me that someone who ordered tap water could be thought a cheapskate until I read that post.

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I ordered water when I was in Italy for the same reasons, and I must say I hated it. Even if you order still water (I dislike sparkling water), it is heavy and tastes of many minerals which I would just as soon do without. Definitely not one of my favorite culinary traditions.

I have been under the impression that it is regarded cheap by some waiters: I particularly recall visiting 450 Farenheit (when that business was still open) with

dark_age_girl to try it out (they gave $25 off coupons to Tafelmusik visitors--in fact, they gave out a lot of coupons, which may have had something to do with the fact they did not last long...) and every table had these small bottles of fashion water that were barely more than a glass each, but cost several dollars. We discussed whether they were in fact for drinking or were just decoration, and then both ordered tap water, at which the waiter looked at us funny.

I actually really liked the food there, and I had a whole pile of coupons--too bad I only got to go the once.

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dark_age_gal--excuse me

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My husband is the opposite. He can't stand the earthy, chlorinated taste of tap water, even when it's been filtered so we buy bottled water at the local grocery.

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Is that true in other parts of the country/world too, in addition to S.F.?

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I suspect that the card may have gotten lost, but I have an extra one from that very place, and will send a replacement.

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I know the lady in question. She holds very strong opinions on a range of issues relating to other people's behaviour and isn't afraid to share them. I don't always agree with her but, to be fair, the last thing I would call her is "snobby" or "elitist". I think there is some not very well articulated sense of a "moral economy" underpinning her argument. Personally I don't buy it. If a business chooses to run a sale on part of its product line I don't think customers are obliged to compensate by ordering other stuff they don't want.

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I wonder how all-you-can-drink refills factor into the tipping equation in this case, given how much extra labor is involved.

Anyways, whether it was you or amberspyglass, I'm proud of whoever it was for being responsible enough to point out my unintentional hijacking of the discussion so

lilactime could be in the loop too.

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I'm proud of whoever it was for being responsible enough to point out my unintentional hijacking of the discussion so [info]lilactime could be in the loop too.

It wasn't me. I had avoided the discussion on

toronto_eats because I had a pretty good sense of where it would go. I note that this morning

lilactome shut the discussion down.

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Her shutdown post is the only reason I'm quite certain she knows about this one, since she effectively quoted it. Could be coincidence, but I suspect not. Anyways, it's only fair she does know of this one, since she was partially a topic of the thread.

The thread really was dying though - going no where new. I'm glad she posted it in the first place though - good points generally, and it made me think about the bottled water issue in a way I hadn't before.

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Hello!

I don't think you hijacked the discussion at all. :) It was posted in a publically-viewable community, so is fair game.

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Hello!

I'm glad you didn't mind. It was a thought-provoking post, and I'm glad you made it. I was particularly charmed by the egalitarian way you addressed both sides of the customer-service equation.

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I happen to know the poster, and she's not a snobby jerk at all. I also happen to know what Toronto tap water tastes like. If I were a water-drinker, which I'm not, I'd always get bottled (or at least filtered) in that city. Elsewhere, I suppose it's a different story.

I don't agree with everything

lilactime says in that post, but a lot of it made sense to me. If I want tea or dessert with my meal, I don't want to have to beg for it. It's just good form for the waitstaff to offer. And if you're parking your butt in a restaurant seat for two or three hours, it's polite to order something while you sit there. That doesn't mean you need to feel guilty about not ordering a drink or a salad if you're in a hurry or whatever; nobody is saying that you have to respond to up-selling. It's just that if a server brings me the bill when I don't feel done, I'm not going to stop her and order something else; I'll just leave, and we both lose. What's snobbish about that?

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No, one shouldn't have to beg -- But if I want to tip generously, I'm going to tip generously. I'd rather throw a couple extra bucks to the server than feel that I had to because I'd racked up a larger bill. And I have little patience for servers who don't do good jobs because they assume their customers are cheap. I've spent a lot of time eating by myself or with other women (typically believed to be bad tippers) and have had to work with people who didn't want to wait on large parties of black people or Roma, because "they're cheap." Of course, I've been known to tell servers that I'll pay rent on the table ...

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Her post was indeed extremely sensible - perhaps that's why there was no discussion of any of her other points. I don't know if it was you or

chickenfeet2003 who pointed her back to this post, but I'm so proud of whichever it was for being responsible that way, even if much (but not all) of this discussion reiterates points made in the original one. I completely hadn't meant to hijack the topic into my journal, and might not have had I remembered (or known?) that the community was member-only for commenting.

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I think you're right -- it was mostly extremely sensible. Except for the ordering drinks bit and the consequent implication that that made it all right for the servers to not do their jobs (because part of the impetus for the post seemed to be, "all you cheap-ass people you don't know how to behave caused my service to be less than perfect")

One of the places where I used to wait tabled was hugely famous for its discount coupons -- so much so, that we were slammed when there were discounts and not all that busy without, because the general customer group were working-class people who really didn't get out that much. These folks didn't want to be upsold, and frequently forgot that tax would be added on to the final bill -- and don't even think they'd tip on the original amount! As a server, you just suck it up and get on with it -- and try to turn the table as quickly as posible!

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I think Toronto tap water tastes OK. I probably drink at least 4L a day of it in the summer. It's no worse than anywhere else I've lived and it's a great deal better than, say, Ottawa.

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I'm not on the f-list for

toronto_eats, so I'll post my own thoughts on the water thing here --
I dunno ... I go for the food, and I order what I want/what I can afford, figuring in a hefty tip. And I often prefer to drink tap water, not because of the price, but because I'm just not in the mood for anything else and don't really like the bubbly stuff.

I've worked in restaurants for close to 15 years -- it's only this year I realized I don't need to renew my server's permits. I've got friends who have worked in restaurants for much longer. I can agree with most of what you're saying but #2 is just bullshit. The server's job is to make my experience good -- not the reverse. If a server can't pull his or her head out of his or her ass and give good service, no matter what, then the customer is not to blame. I'm not saying customers have a right to be assholes, but the burden is on the server and the restaurant, not the other way around. There is a reason it's called the service industry.

I usually figure that bottled still vs. bottled sparkling vs. tap is mostly a matter of taste preferences. This argument would be more convincing if places selling bottled water went further out of their way to specify brand. It was partially silly, partially utterly charming, when the Royal York Hotel in Toronto started providing a whole bottled water menu. Insanity for the distance the water travels, but charming because it deals with the whole reason for ordering bottled water in the first place for me, taste.

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I admit, I have favourites -- I love Apollinaris and Pellegrino, not so big on Perrier. And I like the mineral-y ones.

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I must try making a cold version of

ewtikins' maple syrup lemon drink. I have only had it hot before. It is delicious.

Of course it's acceptable to order tap water at a restaurant (at least in the UK; I can't comment on customs in other countries). Not everybody wants alcohol/caffeine/sugar/fizz/whatever, and charging extortionate amounts for plain water simply because it came out of a particular hole in the ground is a despicable practice. If a business can't make a decent profit on whatever I'm buying from them, then that's a problem with their business, and I am not obliged to buy other things I don't want just to make up for it. If any restaurant dared to give me poor service because I did not order the highest-profit items from their menu, they would lose their tip, my goodwill, and all my future custom. And I would make sure as many other people as possible knew what kind of service they could expect there. Happily, I have never had such a thing happen.

Most of the other points in the post were reasonable, though.

And I've only had her maple syrup lemon drink cold before - so good! I'll try it hot - but not in this weather.

The argument over tipping is partially confused in this discussion by the multiple attitudes towards tipping which the commenters in my LJ have - tipping is, for better or worse, necessary in Canada and the US in a way that it's generally not in the UK.

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English lemonade and pimms is just wrong (unless you have a huge source of apple mint in nextdoor's garden). I go for carbonated mineral water or ginger beer.

Yum.

Pimms and English lemonade is really growing on me, although it could well be improved by the addition of fresh mint. My mint plant is looking pathetic right now, but not so much so that I couldn't top up a glass of drink from it.

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I miss American frozen lemonade-in-cans too, especially because in addition to being easy, you'd get a bit of slush on the top if you mixed it really quickly with really cold water, so it was like a tasty icy treat on top of being thirst-quenching!

I miss lemonade so. 7-Up is NOT lemonade!

October