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posted by [personal profile] owlfish at 05:55pm on 28/03/2006
I've heard people reminisce about how high school was the best time of their life.
I've heard people reminisce about how university was the best time of their life.
I've never heard anyone reminisce about how grad school was the best time of their life.

Why? Do I need to wait ten years until daily self-doubt has become a fading memory for my colleagues? Or is it that the goals of graduate school are so spread out that it's harder to achieve a feeling of accomplishment at regular enough intervals? Or is it that grad school is ultimately done for professional purposes, that it's a transitional credentialling and rarely an end in its own right? Or perhaps it's that those who really love grad school never end up in conversations which cause them to reflect that life was better back then?
There are 32 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] onesnap.livejournal.com at 05:01pm on 28/03/2006
Thank you for this as I passed it along to my husband. He's going thru the phase of "I hate grad school as it is soooo boring"
 
posted by [identity profile] cataptromancer.livejournal.com at 05:08pm on 28/03/2006
Grad school is wretched, and most people I've met agree. I think peoples' experience ranges from okay/mediocre for the lucky ones and soulblastinglyhellish for the non-lucky ones. I'm somewhere in the middle. My biggest gripes include...

-still depending on the criticism/grading of others but expected to be independent (contradictory much?)
-having no visibile increase of status or income over 5-7 years
-a growing emphasis on product and time-completed over process
-in the 'studying for large exam' and 'preparing giant document' phases, having no actual day-to-day goals and accomplishments
-the rush to secure funding, coupled with the limitation of only being able to do so much (in most cases, you can't make a lateral move to another program if your funding runs out, like you _can_ do if a job is getting annoying or if you're laid off)
-not having most people understand what the hell you're doing or why you're doing it

Of course, there are things I love about grad school. I'm paid, however little, to sit around and read things that I think ought to be read. And if the gamble works out, a professorial job will be awesome (and solve many of the above problems). I'd much rather be a grad student than, well, anything else I could choose, and definitely more than all the things that people who don't have a choice have to do. But still, there are things about it that make people pretty grim.
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posted by [personal profile] owlfish at 11:25pm on 28/03/2006
Not only is it years of no income and no status increase, but it's years of actively losing income which we'd have otherwise accrued. Grad school comes at a major cost, and that cost isn't just tuition and living expenses.

It's been a real relief to have a number of people comment on this post that they really did enjoy their MA degrees; notably, no one has been so positive about their PhDs. Discontent, weariness, confusion, and self-doubt are the most frequent traits of graduate students weblog posts, leavened by the moments of intellectual thrill, satisfying student feedback, and research revelations which make the rest worth working through.

in the 'studying for large exam' and 'preparing giant document' phases, having no actual day-to-day goals and accomplishments
While this is unsatisfying and challenging after years of structured coursework, at the same time, I think it's one of the most important things that a PhD requires. It forces us each to grapple with time management and learn to be independent scholars. I'm still not good at it, but I'm a whole lot better than I was a few years ago.
 
posted by [identity profile] greenelephant.livejournal.com at 05:13pm on 28/03/2006
I'd say that the two year MA I did was the best time of my life. University wasn't all that much fun, and high school was much worse. But my MA was in coastal, southern California (remember, I come from Alberta), and entire vistas of scholarship, intellectual purpose, and validation opened up to me.

It was the Ph.D. that made me feel dejected sometimes.
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posted by [personal profile] owlfish at 11:10pm on 28/03/2006
It is such a relief to hear someone commit to having really enjoyed some part of grad school. I'm glad the MA was so satisfying for you.

One of the best things about reading blogs (esp., once, Invisible Adjunct) was the discussion it opened up, that huge numbers of grad students were discontent in various ways with the graduate school process. Flaws do not make something wrong, but it was equally healthy to have a public discussion in it being completely okay to leave graduate school. It does not equate to personal failing if a system doesn't fit. But equally, those discussions left me wondering about all those who really did enjoy grad school when the alternative cited in these discussions is the propaganda promoting program growth.
 
posted by [identity profile] a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com at 05:18pm on 28/03/2006
There were parts of grad school that were wonderful, but those are the same things we get when we're out of grad school: the cameraderie, the great conversation with colleagues, the reading as work (except that it's far harder when out of grad school unless you land a research job), the bitching about student writing ...

And then there's the continued feelings of fraud (except that you now have a degree to prove that you fooled everybody -- or is that just me?), feeling overwhelmed and overcommitted (except that you now pretty much do it to yourself) ... but also, the having people pay for your travel, the part where you know you finished, the (with any luck) employment.

Me? I occasionally miss the relative safety and protection of Doktorvater, but it's nowhere near the fun of being out there without a net. Not that I haven't done my best to create one so that I can't fall without trying really hard!

 
posted by [identity profile] fjm.livejournal.com at 07:01pm on 28/03/2006
Loved my MA.

Was a full time professor during my PhD so didn't really get to take part in grad school conversations.
 
posted by [identity profile] intertext.livejournal.com at 07:10pm on 28/03/2006
My MA was hellish to the max - I realize now that Toronto's expectations were stunningly unrealistic in terms of workload, (a ONE year MA - four courses done concurrently when in my PhD I did 2 per term and found that challenging). The PhD was fun at first - course work was terrific, comps were okay - reading list was interesting, exams and viva hellish but MAJOR sense of accomplishment afterwards. Dissertation... hell, largely due to supervisor difficulties which I gather are not uncommon. You also get so fed up with people who are by this time effectively your peers treating you as a "student" - in my case, I'm a mature student and had been teaching in a community college for years, and actually had more teaching experience than my diss supervisor...
 
posted by [identity profile] snowdrifted.livejournal.com at 07:17pm on 28/03/2006
I don't really think either high school or university were the "best" times of my life, because a lot of them were still very socially awkward for me.

I can very very definitely say that graduate school has been the most formative period of my life. Probably this has to do with how challenging it's been, and I've changed because of it. But if I were given a choice between the person I am now, and who I was in undergrad? No contest. I'd rather have grad-school me, even with all the stresses.
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posted by [personal profile] owlfish at 11:17pm on 28/03/2006
The people most likely to go on to graduate school are, on average, the most introverted. It takes a long time to learn to function well with other people. Perverse, then, that graduate school, esp. in North America, is intended to train people to be teachers, admins, and people-people by way of several years of researching all by your lonesome. (This realization was courtesy of [livejournal.com profile] fjm.)
 
posted by [identity profile] a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com at 12:08am on 29/03/2006
I think that might be true in the UK, especially, since grad work is almost entirely independent. I'm not so sure that's true in the US, though, where we all have quite a bit of coursework to get through. And I think perhaps that the introverted are more successful as researchers, which could help to explain why so many of the people at the 'top' of the profession publish so very much and avoid the interaction of teaching undergrads.
The solitude is the hardest part of the job for me -- I can be alone in a group of people quite happily. I work best in the library, with the pressure of total strangers working around me. But I'm total crap at being by myself and not being distracted.

That seems to be true for many people I know, and for most of the people who are excellent teachers first, and good (or excellent) researchers second. The sucky part is that the extroverted teacher-types are often considered second-class citizens and get fewer opportunities to research, although without us, the introverted researcher types (and yes, I know I'm talking extremes here) wouldn't have nearly the same amount time to indulge their own work.

And of course, I'd say that the very self-disciplined and smart out-perform the brilliant but flakey on a daily basis.
 
posted by [identity profile] a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com at 12:53am on 29/03/2006
Could I have qualified any of those statements more? Sheesh!
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posted by [personal profile] owlfish at 10:17am on 29/03/2006
And I didn't qualify my statements enough. That final "grad school" line should have been just about dissertating.

The social elements are, I suspect, why most people who've responded to this enjoyed their MAs more unadulteratedly than their PhDs.

It's such a pity that teaching ends up being rated as a second-class activity when it's so important. This week's mediev-l discussion on accountability is indirectly relevant here: how to rate and account for adequacy of teaching? It's easier to run down list of what publications have been accomplished.

Your comment has left me with incoherent thoughts on the changing status of various professions. Low-class surgeons in antiquity. Teachers/people-who-know-things-and-pass-them-on as keepers of tradition, preservers of community knowledge and their differing importance among communities over time. I wonder if there's any correlation at all between the widespread "we are all individuals" concept and the "new research is better than old teaching" presumption. How was the teaching/research status balance before the '60s?
 
posted by [identity profile] a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com at 05:25pm on 29/03/2006
My gut feeling is that things were somewhat different -- the GI Bill changed things dramatically in the States, and I think that the big changes in opening up university education to a far greater number of people (theoretically) happened across Western Europe at about the same time. Truthfully, it's still much more stratified and class-based than it seems -- university education in Europe might be open to all qualified applicants, but those who will or won't qualify tend to be pared down fairly early. For me, that's not a problem, in that I don't think everybody needs a university education, but my experience is that much of the paring happens along class and race lines, and that's very problematic.

Back to the US, one of the funny things is that, at least in History, there are a lot of SLACs (like the one that hired me, did I mention I have a JOB!!!! --sorry) that are known to produce good future PhDs, and are feeders to the big name Uni's. One of the things that encourages me is that there has been a big push to strengthen the teaching of History and to remind people that it is an academic discipline with its own ways of thinking and writing (again going back to a couple of things on the Mediev-L list and some of the stuff that comes out on H-Teach). I'm reading Sam Wineburg's latest at the moment, and it's really good. It seems that, in having to justify the existence of the field, good teaching is starting to receive more credit. At least, i hope so!
 
posted by [identity profile] mirrorshard.livejournal.com at 07:19pm on 28/03/2006
My grad school was truly awful, to the point that I broke and gave up on it. It was useful, though, when not excrutiatingly painful, and given the choice I'd've gone for one I could stand rather than none at all.
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posted by [personal profile] owlfish at 11:15pm on 28/03/2006
If something - especially something like grad school - isn't working for you, then it's healthy to leave it. It's not your fault that the program didn't work for you. I'm sorry you ended up going through the stress of aftermath, but glad the experience wasn't a complete wash for you.
 
posted by [identity profile] forthright.livejournal.com at 07:25pm on 28/03/2006
I'm not generally a 'best time of my life' person. I'm also not entirely sure I can objectively compare a period that just ended a couple of years ago to other periods further removed.

Having said that, I think that grad school may well have been the best time of my life. To be in a community where my mentors actively respected and encouraged my ideas, allowing me to produce a substantial piece of work of my own devising. Not to mention substantial amounts of free time. That's pretty sweet. Not to mention that grad school represents the period when I got married! Were there times when I was frustrated and despised it? Damn right. But compare that to a 9-5 desk job, and I'd take grad school any day.
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posted by [personal profile] owlfish at 11:12pm on 28/03/2006
I find the whole "best time of my life" thing to be pessimistic. It implies that life will never get any better than it was. It's all down hill. The "best time of my life so far" is a bit healthier.
 
posted by [identity profile] ireactions.livejournal.com at 10:49pm on 28/03/2006
I'd say the best period of my life was last night. Very nice chats with my friends Shannon and Claire, quiet dinner of spaghetti, pleasant cup of tea. But I'm really looking forward to my next bath, so there might be a new contender soon.
 
posted by [identity profile] vschanoes.livejournal.com at 11:09pm on 28/03/2006
People who say that high school is the best time of their lives are sick, sick, sick, and untrustworthy to boot. I will have nothing to do with such freaks of nature who were laughing gleefully while I was being mercilessly mocked and shunned.

I have to say, grad school is probably the best time in my life. College was miles better than high school, and grad school has been, on the whole, excluding various life difficulties that really have nothing to do with the experience of grad school itself, leagues better than college. And I think that has to do with being in a place where my skills, interests, and strengths are valued and recognized, rather than denigrated and mocked, and also continuing to mature and become more settled in who I am.

But as to the general question, as to why so many more people prefer college to grad school (again, feh, I spit on people who enjoyed high school), I think it has to do with time of life. Many of us were miserable in high school, which is a time when hormones run unchecked and people are not fully socialized yet. And grad school often takes place during adulthood--one cannot be so carefree as many middle-class college kids are, because one is more concerned with taking care of oneself, worrying about the future, financial concerns, and planning families. Finally, in grad school, the heady freedoms of college--being able to do what you want without your parents looking over your shoulder--are more or less de rigeur, and thus no longer carry euphoria with them.
 
posted by [identity profile] fjm.livejournal.com at 05:45pm on 29/03/2006
You don't think it's just that the only people left are mostly Like Us?
 
posted by [identity profile] vschanoes.livejournal.com at 11:35pm on 29/03/2006
You mean as why I like grad school so much? Absolutely! That's the biggest part of it--that's what I meant when I wrote that I was in a place where my skills and interests were valued. Honestly, one of the biggest reasons I came to grad school was that after college I realized that the people I had enjoyed hanging out with most were academics.
 
posted by [identity profile] ballincollig.livejournal.com at 11:29pm on 28/03/2006
Grad school has been like a dance through paradise when compared to the seven soulless years I spent after Smith working retail.

I thank my lucky stars every day that I'm still here...even when I'm in term-paper-hell.

 
posted by [identity profile] aquitaineq.livejournal.com at 04:07pm on 29/03/2006
Good luck with your term paper hell. I miss academia, myself. And since I don't want to spend my life working souless years in retain I'll probably have to go back and get something practical to work with. Like a Masters in library science. le sigh. Maybe a third masters would be the charm.
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posted by [identity profile] naomichana.livejournal.com at 11:36pm on 28/03/2006
I loved graduate school, and I found it infinitely more sustaining than full-time tenure-track academia, which probably has to do with landing myself in exactly the wrong sort of department. I also miss some of my grad-school friends, but it's been fascinating (and rewarding) to discover who I've managed to keep in touch with.

I'm not prone to best-time-of-my-life conversations, though. For one thing, I prefer to believe that the best is yet to be; for another, it seems ridiculous to say that a given time is Best In All Ways. Right now, my work life is lousy but I think there might be light at the end of the tunnel, my friendships are good but I think I could do a better job maintaining them, my religious life is good but overscheduled (also suffering from confusion with my work life), my family life is good but I miss various departed relatives like hell, and my love life is better than it has ever been but I refuse to contemplate a downturn. So it's complicated, and I wind up sounding a bit like Candide when I try to express it. ;)
 
posted by [identity profile] chamaeleoncat.livejournal.com at 12:35am on 29/03/2006
My first three years or so of grad school were really my best, I hadn't discovered self doubt yet. My dissertation is definately challenging me, but mostly in a good way (I just keep telling myself this...). Sometimes I think I would like to experience college again with the self-confidence and focus I have now. I'm certainly more comfortable in social situtations now than I was as an undergraduate.
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posted by [personal profile] owlfish at 06:09pm on 29/03/2006
I acquired a social life as an undergrad, starting the week I arrived. There are lots of opportunities I failed to take advantage of as an undergrad, but if I could go back and change only one thing - I would have slept more and been more alert for all that I did do.
 
posted by [identity profile] sursamajor.livejournal.com at 02:39am on 29/03/2006
Grad school was the best time of my life (so far). Hands down, no question. I spent my entire childhood wanting to be in graduate school, just for its own sake, and I was not disappointed. But then, I am a very weird person.
 
posted by [identity profile] austengirl.livejournal.com at 08:17am on 29/03/2006
I found undergrad to be more enjoyable than grad school, but I did enjoy many things about my postgrad course. Academically, I worked harder in undergrad and I was disappointed in my performance and dissertation. I feel like the department I was in needed to make some other changes to the programme, which they may have done since I left. But a one year MSc is quite different to what a lot of the other people above have experienced. I did meet some great people (including future husband) and got to live in one of my favourite cities for a year. Also after 4 years of Smith, I got some valuable experience of learning to socialise with guys and even become friends with some of them. As life experiences go, it was a good one. Career-wise, what I'm doing now has absolutely no relation to my degree and it's like I never went at all. I probably need to work on that.

I've heard so many stories about PhDs from hell that I am not considering one any time soon, mainly because there's nothing I'm passionate enough about to spend 4 years slaving over it. Though I do enjoy research, sometimes. ;)
 
posted by [identity profile] aquitaineq.livejournal.com at 04:04pm on 29/03/2006
heh, I hear ya! I have two MA's and I'm applying to shoe stores in the Mall and everything in between because no one is biting! sheesh :P
(deleted comment)
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posted by [personal profile] owlfish at 06:10pm on 29/03/2006
I often look forward to cheese.
 
posted by [identity profile] aquitaineq.livejournal.com at 04:00pm on 29/03/2006
*sigh* well, I guess it all depends on whether or not that person is lucky enough to be studying in a supportive and friendly environment. Unfortunatly, it seems that the majority of graduate programs aren't necessarily like that.
Teacher tend to be supportive to undergrads but once the line is crossed into graduate studies your on your own or your out. At least that was how it was for me.

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